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Author Topic: oil pump reccomendations, billet aluminum or cast for Chevrolet ??  (Read 563 times)

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Offline GOOD VIBRATIONS

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oil pump reccomendations, billet aluminum or cast for Chevrolet ??
« on: September 04, 2014, 04:55:15 pm »
    Recently, I had bearing failure on a 305 sprint car engine due to what I believe was the oil pressure by- pass valve sticking in the bore of the oil pump. Upon assembly I checked the by-pass and I did not like the way it moved so I polished the piston/valve so it moved freely. I think that was a mistake because after the bearing failure, I disassembled the oil pump, (a Melling high volume race pump), and found the by-pass piston stuck, but not full open. Blowing through it slightly leaked air but it was not returned as far as the spring should have returned it to keep it from leaking any air, ( or oil). After removing the piston/valve and putting it back into the bore it moved freely once again. I should have replaced the pump but I did not because it was new.
All of the parts in this engine were new, Lunati crank, K1 H-beam rods, ARP bolts torqued to .005 stretch, King bearings .003 clearance, all junk now, even burned the main caps during ONE - 5/8th mile lap !! Had 80 psi cold and 65 psi hot with Brad Penn 20-50 before the one lap.
    The 305 rules do not allow a dry sump. I am really beating myself up over this failure and don't know how I can trust an oil pump. Are the billet aluminum oil pumps MADE BY Moroso or Melling the answer ?  The difference is a $ 500.00 pump verses a $ 150.00 pump.
    My Good Vibrations FC has a BBC with an iron pump in the engine. I never had trouble like this before with any engine. Now I am second guessing myself.       Any suggestions ?
« Last Edit: September 04, 2014, 05:57:11 pm by GOOD VIBRATIONS »
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Offline alkymonza

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Re: oil pump reccomendations, billet aluminum or cast for Chevrolet ??
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2014, 07:12:06 pm »

  I've run nothing but high volume cast $120 Mellings pumps in both my chevy funny cars.  Never an issue.  I don't see the reason to go to a $500 billet pump, for my applications.  Doesn't your driver have a low oil pressure warning light?
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Offline GOOD VIBRATIONS

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Re: oil pump reccomendations, billet aluminum or cast for Chevrolet ??
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2014, 07:40:20 pm »
Chris,  Good point, I loaned my engine to another team, he did not have a light !  Both of our Grandinetti sprint cars have lights.  My engines are normally in Grandinetti's cars. Light on - shut off could have minimized the damage.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2014, 07:43:32 pm by GOOD VIBRATIONS »
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Offline Matt Stambaugh

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Re: oil pump reccomendations, billet aluminum or cast for Chevrolet ??
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2014, 08:45:37 pm »
Hey Goldy when we were racing and building a lot of 305 racesaver engines we ran AFM/Schumann oil pumps they are by far better than melling castings and are assembled by hand and come with a copper gasket that really works good. Check em out, you will love em.
p.s. Melling changed there castings a few years ago  for m55hv, they are way too thin right where the machined area for the stud is, and now do not recommend them for hi performance use, printed on a note in the box.

Matt

Offline alkymonza

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Re: oil pump reccomendations, billet aluminum or cast for Chevrolet ??
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2014, 09:53:20 pm »

  Matt, do the Mellings 10550-10555 series pumps use the same m55hv casting?  A standard m55hv is a $40 pump, and the 10550-10555 pumps are about $110.  I don't have much experience with the small block stuff.
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Offline 60wrench

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Re: oil pump reccomendations, billet aluminum or cast for Chevrolet ??
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2014, 10:53:55 pm »
Talk to Steve or Mark at System 1 Filters 559-687-1955 they can help you with your oil pump problems.

Offline Kenneth S

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Re: oil pump reccomendations, billet aluminum or cast for Chevrolet ??
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2014, 10:53:45 am »
A friend of mine lost oil pressure in his RED with a 468" BBC in the lights (1/4 mile), drained the oil, dropped the oil pan (the oil pan was still heavy). The Mellings cast HV oil pump was laying in the bottom of the oil pan, it broke off about 1/4" below the bolt that holds it to the main cap. I've heard that some guys running stock eliminator cars with BBC's in them using a stock volume SBC oil pump. The more oil volume, and or high pressure you pump the more power you loose (think of an oil pump like being a water brake on an engine dyno). I'd run a stock volume billet pump.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2014, 10:59:39 am by Kenneth S »
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Offline Troy Cagle

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Re: oil pump reccomendations, billet aluminum or cast for Chevrolet ??
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2014, 12:41:33 pm »
" I'd run a stock volume billet pump."
----------------------------------------

Or, a stock volume Melling.

I always make up a nifty (3/16 or 1/4) steel strap that goes from one of the 1/4-28 pump cover bolts, down to a rear main stud for support.(You'll need a longer, grade 8 pump cover bolt)--Make the strap so it's not in a bind when bolting it to the cover and main stud.

Chuck the stud in my lathe & drilled a 3/8 deep hole in the center of the stud & tapped it for 1/4-28 bolt. (TINY dab of LocTite on re-assembly)

If you're going to run a new Melling, always take it completely apart before mounting it, and use a small whetstone and gently deburr *every* sharp edge you can find, or get to.

 Gently wet sand the pump cover on a piece of glass (600 grit), and slightly chamfer the 1/4-28 bolt holes in the housing.Hose everything down with Brakleen, blow dry & re assemble with whatever lube you prefer.

Thats good info about the new Melling HV with the thinned out mounting pad---wtf were they thinking?

 http://www.melling.com/
« Last Edit: September 05, 2014, 08:22:18 pm by Troy Cagle »
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Offline JHale496

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Re: oil pump reccomendations, billet aluminum or cast for Chevrolet ??
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2014, 07:46:54 pm »
Mellings offers a bbc pump for the sbc.
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Offline GOOD VIBRATIONS

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Re: oil pump reccomendations, billet aluminum or cast for Chevrolet ??
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2014, 05:05:18 pm »
Thanks for the info guys, Matt thanks for the recommendation that I will consider.
      60 Wrench: that is interesting that you should recommend Steve at System 1. The former 305 that I built lasted for three seasons, two consecutively and the third after freshening up. I bought a system one filter to put on it after the freshening the rings, bearings etc. Joe Grandinetti would not let me use the System 1, he insisted on a Wix. Joe G. said that the system 1 would not flow enough oil and the bearings would burn up. I had the System1 on my engine when the bearings failed. Of course Joe got into my face with "I told you that filter would do that" .
I researched the flow rates and the System 1 flows 30 gallon per minute, the Wix flows 28 gallons per minute. I don't know what the SBC oil flow is but some of the best dry sumps are flowing 30 gpm so I am thinking that the System 1 filter is more than enough.
      While doing the research I found out that trying to choose a filter based on specifications is difficult. The micron rating only tells you the average smallest particle that will not pass through the ; screen, mesh, or paper element. The micron rating does not describe the flow rate. System 1 filters offer three micron rated screens; 30 micron for 0w to 5ow oil, 45 micron for 0w to 60w, and 75 micron for 60w and 70w. Oddly the flow rate does not change as the micron rating changes.
      Another question that I want to throw out there is about the oil filter bypass. This engine is the first time that I plugged the original GM by pass. I figured that the System 1 has a built in by pass so I did not need two filter by pass valves.
      I also noted that the Wix website listed their internal by pass at 18 to 22 psi. At that kind of pressure wouldn't the bypass always be open at 60 to 80 psi oil pressure? I always thought the bypass was for cold starts on a street car, 18 to 22 psi isn't exactly cold start pressures.
      I know that I am second guessing everything but something kept those bearings from getting oil.
Has anyone had any experience with System 1 cast oil pump for the small block Chevrolet ? How much does it cost ?
« Last Edit: September 08, 2014, 06:31:09 pm by GOOD VIBRATIONS »
"I go by the results and the rest is bullshit"
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Offline Matt Stambaugh

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Re: oil pump reccomendations, billet aluminum or cast for Chevrolet ??
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2014, 07:06:31 pm »
Hey Chris Mass,
   No the Melling Casting for the "Select" series pumps are way more dense iron and coated with what i think is a phosperous coating (not sure on that) and some of the select pumps have  anti-cavitation grooves, I have never had any issues with the Melling Select pumps, the BBC pumps are just a "upsized' version of the SBC one with an extra bolt in the cover.

Cagle,
   I have no idea what the were thinking? m55hv and m77hv have to be the most highly sold off the shelf iron oil pumps ever, i heard thru grapevine at P.R.I a couple years ago that it was an outsourcing the castings deal to a different foundry in a different country?

Matt

Offline GOOD VIBRATIONS

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Re: oil pump reccomendations, billet aluminum or cast for Chevrolet ??
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2014, 04:59:03 pm »
    Matt;  three years ago I had a different Melling pump failure on a 305 sprint car engine. One of the pump gears split at the shaft which locked the pump and tore off the drive tang. The driver of the sprint car was quick to shut off and I only lost a couple rod bearings and had the crank re polished. I found nothing, no debris in side the pump, that would cause the lock up. That engine lasted two more years after that pump failure.
"I go by the results and the rest is bullshit"
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Re: oil pump reccomendations, billet aluminum or cast for Chevrolet ??
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2014, 04:59:03 pm »
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